Views By V Adm Harinder Singh , President NFDC about..IESL

Dear Brig Gulia,

I think the IESL has had several meetings with the big wigs in the South Block and few have been attended by NFDC rep to butteress our common case. We have been disappointed with the results and feel that these meetings have been, continue to be a waste of time, serve the ends of one ESM and only help the MOD in delaying every thing and give an impression that they want to help us. Your letter / discussions contain nothing but what we have gone over on several occasions and in several fora and can hardly be considered a success other that to advertise IESL.

NFDC has reviewed our current status of collaboration with other ESM Organisations in the light of our failure to get our demands met by the GOI and the failure of some of the ESM organisation to deliver on their promises and therefore want to disassociate our selves from all such future joint efforts.

NFDC will here after revert to our independence and will independently decide on our way ahead to achieve our goals. No NFDC rep will hereafter liasion or co-ordinate with IESM. All issues may please be referred to me or other Navy Foundation office bearers.


Thanks and Regards

PR Cell Of IESM..by Brig Nangpal

Dear Gen Kadyan,

A thought has been crossing my mind for some time, which i thought of sharing with you all.

For any movement to succeed, it must have a powerful & convincing PR. Hence i feel we must have a strong PR Cell. Composition is a matter detail.

Also in the meantime we should creat some CDs on various aspects of the movement and put them on social web sites to reach out to broader aection of the society in India & abroad. The sites like You Tube, Face book etc are some such ones.

Resouce constraints would be there but the dividends could be out of proportion.

Best wishes & regards


Brig J K Nangpal

MY TAKE ON MR PRAVEEN DAVAR..Cdr KK Punchhi..Canada

Krishan K Punchhi


Dear Friends,

Here is my take on Mr Praveen Davar. Correct me if I'm wrong.

He is the son of a Congress politician and a freedom fighter. It is unfortunate but true, these self styled 'freedom fighters' are blood suckers. They never fought and they are only after power, pelf and money by way of pension etc. I have a relative in this category and I ought to know.

I think Praveen joined the army by mistake. I think he went into armoured corps for the glamour and easy life as compared to the infantry etc. That he went into battle soon after he was commissioned in 1971 must have scared the daylights out of him. If he displayed even an iota of dash and bravery, his politician father would have managed a medal for him and it would have been flaunted. After 71 war he must have had nice cushy postings till he was appointed as ADC to a governor for the last three years of his service. He was out after 10 years of service, the earliest time that one can get gratuity and leave. Again, how many NDA trained have been able to leave after 10 years -- maybe only those who have a clout.

His assertions and writings have a distinct dishonourable stink about them. They are political waffles which a true veteran cannot ever indulge in.

Could some veterans who served with him please give us the facts ?

Regards........................K K Punchhi

A LETTER TO THE EDITOR THE TIMES OF INDIA

From: subhash kapoor sckaps@yahoo.co.in
To: mytimesmyvoice@timesgroup.com
Cc: kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in; TRUNCATED.
Sent: Monday, 14 September, 2009 9:33:16 AM
Subject: A LETTER TO THE EDITOR THE TIMES OF INDIA
WANTED: INFORMATIVE IMPARTIAL INTERACTIVE INDIAN MEDIA (W:IIIIM)


A LETTER TO THE EDITOR THE TIMES OF INDIA


To:

The Editor
The Times of India

Sir:

GOOD SHOW, MR. EDITOR!

This is with reference to the news report in The Times of India (September 14) regarding the return of 5,000 medals by the Ex-Servicemen because of the ourstanding grievances and grave injustices done to the military personnel over the past decades in matters such as quantum/uniformity in pay/pension, absence of a well laid down tamper-proof system of employment opportunites for them after mandatory retirement at an early age, continuous lowering of their status vis-a-vis other government employees, shortage of family accommodation, distortions in a just working relationship between the Civil and Defence wings of the state, and many other issues of similar nature. The powers that be should pay immediate attention to these problems to make for a perfectly fighting fit, ever combat-ready and highly motivated Armed Forces.

THANKS, MR. EDITOR, FOR CARRYING THIS PTI NEWS AGENCY REPORT IN THE TIMES OF INDIA. WE FEEL HAPPY WHILE APPRECIATING THIS GESTURE OF YOURS. THIS IS A GOOD START MADE. PLEASE DO KEEP IT UP WITHOUT OUR HAVING TO REMIND YOU.

THE TIMES OF INDIA, MORE THAN MANY OTHER NEWSPAPERS, HAS A GREAT ROLE TO PLAY IN MOULDING PUBLIC OPINION TO MAKE OUR ARMED FORCES AN IMPREGNABLE BULWARK OF SECURITY AND FREEDOM IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN INDIA'S TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY, UNITY, PROSPERITY AND HONOUR.


Warm regards--and have a nice day, Sir.

Sincerely,

SC Kapoor
Wing Commander (retd)
E-145, Sector 21

fantastic show of the IESM's-"Returning of Medals"

From: subhash bhutani subhashbhutani@yahoo.com


Sent: Monday, 14 September, 2009 7:15:05 AM

Subject: fantastic show of the IESM's-"Returning of Medals"
Sir!
Fantastic show. Please accept my heartiest CONGRATULATIONS for the fantastic show (of DEPOSITION of MEDALS that were won by the ESMs) that was very well organised, peaceful and with restrained & composed remarks while presenting the points of view of the ESMs against the apathetic attitude of the ruling UPA Gov't towards THE ONLY DISCIPLINED PILLAR of our democracy. The Gov't MUST pay attention to the JUST DEMANDs of the quiet and those who NORMALLY follow the DIKTATs (most of the time UNJUST)of the powers THAT BE, without raising ANY QUESTI ONs. May God give SUFFICIENT and ENOUGH REASONING to our rulers to see things in the RIGHT PERSPECTIVE and REALITY dawns on them.
I wish I could take an active part in this show of ESM Strength that proved, if there was ever any doubt, that UNITED WE STAND.
Please convey my sincerest BEST WISHES for future actions/shows.
With regards,
Wg Cdr Subhash Bhutani (Retd),
Presently in the USA at:
C/O Mr Manish Kalia,
1713, Winston Street,
San Jose,
CA-95131,
USA

MISSION OF IESM ON 13 SEP 09 - FULLY SUCCESSFUL by Maj Bhupal singh from australia

From: bhupal singh bsec234@hotmail.com


To: KADYAN Lt Gen RAJ rajkadyan@yahoo.com

Cc: Kamboj Chander kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in


Sent: Monday, 14 September, 2009 9:14:17 AM
Subject: RE: MISSION OF IESM ON 13 SEP 09 - FULLY SUCCESSFUL - EMAIL 674/2009 - 13 SEP 09 - (A to B)

Dear Gen Raj,

I am delighted about the success of MISSION DEPOSITING OF MEDALS on 13 Sep 09. It is indeed another step fwd in our movement to achieve our aim of OROP . The credit goes to all the Members of the Core Team and the Heads of the Regional Cells of our Movement for the untiring efforts , ably led by you. I take this opportunity to congratulate all of you for the success of the Mission and pray for similar success in future too.

2. May I request you to let us know the further course of action being planned/taken by our Movement ?

Also may I suggest that we should hold a massive ( say at least of about 100,000 ESM , including ladies/families & civilians, if possible ) peacefull Rally at Delhi on 02 Oct 2009, on the occasion of Birth Anniversary of Father of the Nation, Mahatma Gandhi, who vehemently advocated peaceful massive agitations to achieve the aim of the movements led by him. As I have stressed in the past in my e-mails, unless such Rallies are Massive, they do not serve the dsired purpose i.e. cause any dent on the psyche of the Politicians & Bureaucrats etc.

The feeling which I have lately developed about our Movement is that we have somewhat become passive presently ( pardon me, if i have felt it wrongly). In order to revive intense feelings amongst Common Masses , the Media, the Authorities and the ESM at large about our Movement, a Massive show of strength on the streets ( aka roads ) is a must. Only then the Authorities may take note of the fact that we are still alive and we mean business . There is an famous axiom " Jab Tak Baccha Rota Nahin, Maa Doodh Nahin Pilati " , which translates somewhat like this..." Unless the Baby cries, the Mother Does Not Give the Feed ". Rest, I leave it to you all. I have no doubt that whatever action the highy learned & dedicated Core Group decide to take, it will bring us nearer to our objective.

3. As regards giving imeptus to enrollment of members and maknig the Movement broad-based, it imperative that we go down to villages and make the ESM of the lowest ranks aware of the anomalies in pension with actual facts & figures in writing in the form of LEAFLETS and motivate them to join the Movement in large Nos. In fact presently , as some of the ESM have already observed in their e-mails earlier, our Movement looks more officers led & oriented. Unless a large number of lowest rank ESM are actively involved in and made to lead our Movement, it may not show the desierd results sooner. Various methods have already been suggested by our experienced & able ESM through their e-mails to reach the ESM staying in far off nooks & corners of the country. It is now high time that we all got together to penetrate these nooks & corners to activate the Movement from the roots. As someone remarked, unless the roots are strong the tree above cannot flourish and live long.This is age old & proven principle and needs to be practised now without further delay.

More in my next e-mail on this.

4. With fond regards to all & my best wishes for the success of the Movement,

IC-10528 L
Maj Bhupal Singh, Veteran
MELBOURNE ( AUSTRALIA )
------------

Mail from Cdr Prem Batra and reply from Gen Kadyan

Dear Veteran Batra,
Acknowledged with thanks

Best regards,

Lt Gen (Emeritus) Raj Kadyan, PVSM, AVSM, VSM


Chairman IESM


262, Sector-17A
Gurgaon- 122 001
Tele: 91+124-4015262
+919811226676


From: prem parkash batra

To: rajkadyan@yahoo.com; kamboj@itintellectuals.com

Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 11:02:15 AM
Subject: Fw: MINUTES OF ALL INDIA ESM MEET HELD ON 30 AUG 09 AT NOIDA - EMAIL 675/2009 - 14 SEP 09 - (A to B)

Lt Gen Raj Kadyan

Brig CS Kamboj

Dear Sirs,

1. Let me restate with all the power of this small write that you and your Steering Committee and your Core Group are doing a marvelous job at IESM and in due course History would appreciate your splendid efforts done with heart and soul, without seeking rewards.

2. The sense I get from the Minutes of All India ESM meet on 30th August 09 at NOIDA is that the wrap up was almost predetermined before the All India meet. Please permit me to put forth my think, more as an outsider than insider but with heart and soul and one who is passionate about matters of ESM.

3. Indian Polity has accepted the suitability of Parliament Democracy and not the US type Presidential System or the hybrid governance system of let us say France. The Supreme Court has more than once clearly pronounced that in Indian Democracy, no single person can be vested with all the powers. It has to be collective wisdom. But the wrap up in essence conveyed Presidential IESM structure. One need not apply RTI here. But let us be clear that we are dealing with multiple authority as it happens in Parliamentary Democrat. No one can work in splendid isolation to deal with the challenges.

4. I would like to think that IESM is not engaged in Military War or Battle. We are dealing with the polity of the entire nation made up of many parts. We need to reckon the underpinning of the GOI and the Political and Bureaucratic Classes and the Masses and the powerful media in listening to public opinion on may fronts like Economy, Poverty, Agriculture and so on. The PM is one amongst equal in the Cabinet just like the CJI is one amongst the Supreme Court Judges. Yet the PM had mandated objectives to be achieved in the first 100 days of UPA-2, as per CPM or what ever else including pulls of Yuvraj. Then why this mandated single focus. I think there was a strong pitch for inclusion of PBORs in your Committees at the High Tables, for instance.

5. What is the use of creating these Cells if they are going to deal with routine, surely with some life affecting problems of the ESM. I would have liked to think that a conscious effort would have been made at making a long term Charter for each Cell along with the 100 days plan of action and results to be expected. It is my view that before the Cell is created, its Charter and terms of reference should have been placed in IESM domain and seriously considered the various in puts. Just please look around, that is what GOI is doing by putting on new legislation or Acts or Executive Orders on their Websites and at Seminars, etc, though they may be obtaining doctored inputs.

6. It therefore follows that the Cells created and headed by eminent Generals should come out with their Charter. Perhaps inputs may be invited from IESM rather than top down hand outs.

7. It is my sincere request that the above be taken in the spirit in which it is put rather than with usual closed lips words.

With best regards,

Prem Batra

CONGRESS EX-SERVICEMEN CELL ATTEMPTS TO MISLEAD THE ESM ABOUT OROP -

From: MK Jain mohann35@yahoo.co.uk

To: exserviceme.congress@gmail.com

Cc: Chander Kamboj kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in ; raj kadyan rajkadyan@yahoo.com

Sent: Sunday, 13 September, 2009 2:28:40 PM

Subject: Re: CONGRESS EX-SERVICEMEN CELL ATTEMPTS TO MISLEAD THE ESM ABOUT OROP - EMAIL 672/2009 - 12 SEP 09 - (H to L)
Most respected Mr Davar,

Your att mail has given us sodiers/ex-soldiers cause for worry regarding future of this already harassed and beleaguered country. You probably in your enthusiasm to glorify your party, put numerous tactical failures of INC over the last 62 years on the backburner. To set the record straight, these are briefly recounted as under:-

(1) KASHMIR " problem ", over which astronomical sum of money has infructuously been spent and an un-specified no. of lives lost. Nothing achieved except rise in insurgency/terrorism etc.


(2) The most shameful and INFAMOUS 1962 Sino-Indian war, when troops were made to defend the sovereignty of our territory in the high altitude/snow-bound areas most inadequately attired ( cotton shirts etc). Incompetence of leadership of those times has been chronicled very broadly over the years. There was one ray of hope in the persona of LAL BAHADUR SHASTRI, who emerged to teach the enemy an abject lesson in the 1965 Indo-Pak war,and restored our lost glory. But alas, he was eliminated under "mysterious" circumstances. In any case, he was an 'odd-man out' in the INC hierarchy and could be inconvenient to them in the long run.
He gave us the dictum:'JAI JAWAN,JAI KISAN'.
Where has the 'JAWAN' vanished?


(3) BANGLADESH war 1971. It turned out to be a thoroughly thankless job and resulted in a worthless " Shimla Agreement ". A solid bargaining point was lost by returning their 93,000 POWs on a plate; we could've got anything in return- eg KASHMIR!


(4) Sending IPKF to Sri Lanka without any tactical knowledge of the terrain etc, losing precious lives of officers & men, getting our PM hit by the butt of their soldier's rifle!

These are some glaring examples. All the govts are fond of using troops to 'HELP' civil authorities since their administrations fail owing to numerous factors like incompetence, lack of will etc. They most readily gave plentiful goodies/bounties to all the rest, leaving the hapless soldiers out in the cold to fend for themselves. Unfortunately, they can't even protest!
Since 1947, INC has achived just one thing in our 'favour' viz. in connivance with their brilliant BUREAUCARACY,degraded us at every stage in every cunning way. This has been our reward. Why not some of your 'worthy' ministers ever visit countries and find out how they respect their soldiers/veterans.

ANYHOW OUR REQUEST IS :
DONOT TWIST FACTS & FIGURES FOR THE SAKE OF CHEAP POPULARITY. YOU KNOW : IT HURTS BADLY.

WITH REGARDS,
VETERAN JAIN .

Rejoinder to Praveen davar by Air Cmde Raghubir singh , Pune

wrote:

From: Lt Gen K S Rao kantamnenirao@yahoo.com
Subject:
To: "V K Rao" vkrao@techconsultinc.com , gmnayar@gmail.com
Date: Monday, 14 September, 2009, 9:16 AM
...
From: raghubir_singh raghubir_singh@yahoo.com

Veterans may like to read my reply I sent this morning.

Dear Capt Praveen Davar,

1.Thanks for your e-mail . While lot of good things have happened in our country due to some pragmatic decisions taken by successive Govts over the last two decades or so – yet lot needs to be done. In the UPA-2 Hon'ble Kapil Sibal has virtually heralded renaissance in our education system-which has been my arena since my retirement more than 13 yrs back. We need similar dynamism in our even more critical Ministry of Defence. You will appreciate that our Armed Forces are the only bulwark against internal disintegration as well as external threats -now growing at menacing pace. Be it Kargils or natural disasters or even the 26/11's, the Services have always stood by the Nation. The ex-servicemen & the serving soldiers have perennial emotional bonding through regimental & squadron ties. The ex-servicemen looking from the sidelines do not feel happy when for example the Service Chiefs are denigrated through inspired & conspired editorials in the media or the men in uniform get pushed down the protocol ladder by one-up-man-ship.

2. Regarding OROP, once the Chairperson of the UPA had committed to it- the Govt should have conceded it gracefully instead of making all efforts to deny it by going in round about manner. Passing off some thing else as OROP especially in the present information age is counter productive. There seems to be forces working at cross purposes who have taken on themselves to deny the legitimate dues to those who have been giving so much for so little to so many of us. For example fixing an entire generation of officers during the 4th CPC as brought out in Major Dhanapalan's case etc shows the mindset which needs to be changed. Though I am no expert – OROP to me means same pension for same rank irrespective of the post & pre 2006 dividing line at least. Yes there could be harmonizing for total length or qualifying years of service if needed.

3. Eminent persons like you who have had the privilege to serve in the Armed Forces & now occupy important positions in the Party in Power can work towards rebuilding the trust with the ex-servicemen- who mostly remain apolitical. OROP has become an emotive issue & misinformation in this regard would serve no purpose.You may like to interact with Lt Gen Raj Kadiyan & Maj Gen Satbir Singh who have been espousing the cause of ex-servicemen & are in a better position to apprise you about the expectations which are not much. I would much appreciate if all MP's & party functionaries with services background come forward and take up the cause of Services including modernization, making service conditions attractive enough to attract the brightest of our young men to the profession of soldiering once again & looking after the veterans who gave their yester -years for our better tomorrows.

Regards

Air Cmde Raghubir Singh (Retd)

13, Prabhat Society,Bavdhan

NDA Road

Pune-411021

--------------

OROP By Col Gb Sethi

From: greh bhushan gb_sethi@yahoo.co.in

To: Lt Gen K S Rao kantamnenirao@yahoo.com

Cc: kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in; satbirsm@yahoo.co.in; rajkadyan@yahoo.co.in; colonelrajan srinivas colonelrajan@gmail.com

Sent: Monday, 14 September, 2009 10:48:53 AM

Subject: Re: OROP

Dear Ge. Rao,

I appreciate Col. Yadav's very open and candid feelings & giving it back to Capt. Davar,who enjoys the benefits of his service & is holding a position, I am sure because of the service background. I am sure Capt. Davar will reflect after reading the response of Col.Yadav & have an introspection of what his blurred ideas about OROP is.

It is just unfortunate that our own clan is not able to fathom the gravity of the issue,and will not mind being sub-servient to the Babus. The degradation over the years in order of precedence,authority and general standing has taken such a beating that situation seems totally hopeless. Our slogans "IZZAT & IQBAL" seems to be of no consequence to them.

Our country's foundation is supposed to be laid on its Ethos, Commitments & Culture of its own origin. We trust each other and are sure of the commitment once it is made. Imagine the fall & down gradation in our commitment. The President Of India, The Supreme Commander Of the Armed Forces making a statement in Parliament that OROP shall be implemented, similarly the Defence Minister & The Finance Minister making similar statements have gone back or have conveniently forgotten what they committed a few days back.

When the Calamity strikes the Govt. & the Babus only remember the services for rescue. So far our soldiers are committed to the obligation they take at the time of their entry in the services, imagine for a while they also forget their obligation as our Politicians do all the time including this time our Supreme Commander, Defence Minister & the Home Minister, the consequences could be different.

But we are proud that "JAAN JAYE PAR VACHAN NA JAYE", we would rather sacrifice our lives rather than go back on our commitment.

See the recent furore over ECONOMY CLASS TRAVEL by MP's. It was amazing to see all the MP's appearing on TV's for a change supporting each others because it affected them. who other wise make slanderous remarks on each others & do not hesitate even going to limits which are not accepted from any cultural society leave aside from the people's representatives.

Lot of water has passed under the bridge in the last one year, it is a WAKE UP CALL for The Government & I hope good sense prevails & the Babus stop policy of divide & rule and agree to a very small & legitimate request by the Services lest it is too late.

Jai Hind.

Col. Dr. GB Sethi,

9440859877

Shocking Praveen Davar

From: Col Veeramani colveeramani@yahoo.com

To: exservicemencongress@gmail.com

Cc: kamboj_cs@yahoo.co.in; rajkadyan@yahoo.com

Sent: Sunday, 13 September, 2009 6:55:00 PM

Subject: Shocking

Dear Mr praveen Davar,
I do not know whether you are an Ex service man or a civilian. If you are an Ex service man, it is a shocking news that you do not know what is the meaning of OROP. Please do not try and do chamcha giri to UPA, who deserve only scoldings, and sincere curses from all Veterans and serving persons. Kindly refrain from misleading people.Brig Kamboj has sent a very mild reply to you. You deserve a very strongly worded reply.
Col Veeramani

Rejoinder to mail from Praveen Davar- Congress-ex-servicemen-welfare cell by Wg Cdr Shashank bendre

From: Wg.Cdr. Shashank Bendre bendresr@gmail.com

To: exservicemen.congress@gmail.com

Sent: Sunday, 13 September, 2009 12:44:13 PM

Subject: Rejoinder to mail from Praveen Davar- Congress-ex-servicemen-welfare cell
Dear Shri Praveen Davar,

Thank you for your mail "Welfare Ex-Servicemen", forwarded to all of us ex-servicemen.

I am very happy that the INC has a cell looking after the welfare of ex-servicemen, about the existence of which I and like me, many of my veteran colleagues were not aware.

I am a veteran from the Indian Air Force,a fact of which I am extremely proud. I have now attained the age of 70 yrs. and as an elderly person would like to present my views on what we expect from your cell.

At the outset, let me say that none of the ex-servicemen are satisfied with what your party has granted in the garb of OROP. It is nowhere near what is the conception of OROP in the minds of veterans. I am sure, that in future, you would maintain a close liaison with IESM which represents a large body of ex-servicemen, who will be able to present a better perspective of what the demand for OROP is. This will help you better in advising your party.

Besides that, there are many issues that rankle in the minds of ex as well as serving servicemen. The most important is the lowering of the status of Armed Forces personnel vis-a-vis their Civil counterparts. The status today is nowhere near what it was pre-independence. It might be argued that pre-independence era was different but I may remind your party that the result of neglect of Armed Forces and lowering its status was the 1962 debacle in the war with China. (The Gen. Henderson report is still kept under wraps as it is no secret that it will expose the failure of the then Congress Govt. in respect of the issue I am talking about). Moreover, even perhaps 5 to 6 years after independence the status was maintained though immediately post-independence, the salary of Armed Forces personnel was reduced (which has no precedent). and to the credit of the Armed Forces personnel, this was accepted in the right spirit thinking it was a one-time aberration. But subsequently, every step the Congress has taken, while in power at the centre is not in the interest of the servicemen community. The result is that there are not many volunteers for joining the Armed Forces as can be seen from the situation when there is a perpetual shortage of about 20% at the officer level in the three services. I would like to know what extra incentive is there for the young Indian to join the Armed Forces except "patriotism" (not to be equated with a Politician's patriotism) which makes him prepared to lay down his life for the country. Despite this, there are over 1.4 to 1.5 million of them serving the nation, fired by that ideal. But is it right on the part of the government to take advantage of that spirit and deny them their due? I am sure you would have heard or seen the esteem and regard in which the servicemen and even veterans are held in countries like the USA and UK. It has to be seen to be believed and I have experienced that personally. Can we say the same thing in India? No, because the leaders of the nation themselves have not recognised the worth of the Armed Forces. A nation which respects it's 'hero's will never have to worry about it's security.

Lastly, I would urge you to convince your partymen not to blindly led by the advice of the powerful IAS lobby. They have, in self-interest, been giving wrong advice to the Ministers. Look at the mess the 6th CPC, entirely composed of IAS and other Central Services, to the glaring exclusion of a single Servicemen's representative, made in respect of the Payband /Grade pay of Lt.Col. and Lt. gens.and equivalent ranks of the other two services which was partially rectified after a lot of dillydallying. Here, again, it was the adversarial attitude and ill-advised actions of the IAS lobby which led to the mess. This self-interest is bound to prove costly for the nation and consequently for interests of your party. In times of need-a war-god forbid it is not imposed on our nation- it will be the Armed Forces who will lay down their lives and not the chair-bound IAS personnel.

Please realise that there has been and still is a simmering discontent amongst the serving personnel from the lowest to the highest rank in the services. It is only that they do not openly display it because they are bound by the discipline of the service which puts nation above self-interest.

Regards,

Your's sincerely.
Shashank Bendre,
Wing Commander(Retd

WELFARE VETERANS &OROP rejoinder by Brig Gangadharan to Praveen Davar

From: brigadier ptgangadharan brigadier.ptgangadharan@gmail.com

To: Praveen Davar exservicemen.congress@gmail.com

Sent: Sunday, 13 September, 2009 2:10:51 PM

Subject: WELFARE VETERANS &OROP

My Dear Mr Praveen,

1.Thank you for your mail on the welfare issues of Veterans, as approved by the UPA Govt ,on the recommendations of the Committee of Secretaries.

2.It is apparent from your mail, that you and the UPA functionaries are not aware of the concept of OROP.Therefore, the issues addressed are not even remotely touching its fringes.These have been projected unambiguously through various forums,particularly in the recent past, by Veterans.The extension of concessions as announced, has further added insult to the injury.More than anything else,it has hurt the interests of other ranks and junior officers.This award is yet another dexterous acts of self serving bureaucracy in manipulating their interest, both of status and emoluments,at the cost of the self sacrificing soldiers.

3.Downgrading the status of Defence Service personnel and reducing their emoluments vis-a-vis their civilian counterparts ,has been resorted to, for the past 60 years,and mostly under the Congress Govt.The final nail was hammered by the 6CPC,appointed by the UPA Govt.The only willing horse,holding the country together, despite all insults and injustices is being flogged beyond a limit.
A noble profession has no takers now, in the officer cadre.The effect of such neglect on the sovereignty of the Nation is not visualised by the Govt(Politicians),which depend totally on the bureaucracy for resolution of all issues.As perceived by the common citizens, most of the issues in any case are the result of the nexus between some of the unscrupulous politicians and the bureaucracy.

4.You may like to educate yourself and your colleagues on the actual problems and issues of Veterans, by understanding soldiers and their psyche.The present announcement by the UPA Govt has belied all hopes of a fair deal to the Veterans,by the current dispensation.

Yours most sincerely,
Brig PT Gangadharan,
Veteran( War wounded Disabled on Wheel Chair)

Mail from Cdr R Pathak from pune to Praveen Davar

Dear Mr Praveen Davar

I am very grateful to you for the mail sent to various ESM organizations.It has given us a tremendous opportunity to educate our ESM(Veterans) on the manipulative skills of the INC and the UPA and how the Defence forces are still able to survive despite the very candid view of the First PM of India and a hallowed figure of the INC Mr Jawaharlal Nehru that INDIA DOES NOT NEED ARMED FORCES and ofcourse the valiant effort of INC's most damaging RM Mr Krishna Menon's attempt to convert Defence units into commercial production houses.

Dear Sir,we are thankful to Pakistan and the Chinese that hey have ensured survival of the Armed Forces in India by their actions.

I do not know if you have ever served in the Armed forces since you have not used any rank.But if you had then you should hang your head in shame for being a part of an organization that is bent upon making sure that the Defence forces are down and out in the Indian social milieu.

If you are not a veteran i can only say that this is the only thing we expect out of you mislead and spread wrong information and tell half truths.I am sorry but the INC has wronged the nation for too long with their sustained effort at fooling the gullible poor indian.

Please issue an immediate clarification to your mail clearly stating that OROP is not approved by the UPA and what has been granted as mere concessions and taken credit for is a discreet acceptance of the stand taken by the courts on certain issues.

I hope yoou have the courage to admit falsifying of information.

Brgds

Cdr R W Pathak I.N.(Retd)
Cdr Ravindra Waman Pathak I.N.(Retd)(Mobile 919822329340

Mail from Orissa...Veteran harish Panda

From: Harish Panda

Subject: thanks you sir

To: jagi_medi@hotmail.com, hrwntsingh@yahoo.co.in

Date: Thursday, 10 September, 2009, 6:25 PM


sir,
I am harish ch.panda ,ex-sm (ex-sigman) from a remotest & rural district Balangir ,ORISSA. We have make a district level association of ex-sm (member registered 185) .
sir, I came to know your mail address from internet & request to send us all recent information /changing in our Defence pensioner caders.
I expect to listen something from you.
--
harish panda.

IESM Members From Doon Valley and also sending Medals for 13 Sep 09

Brij Thapa

to"Brig RS Rawat, VSM"

dateThu, Sep 10, 2009 at 6:51 PM

subjectIESM Members From Doon Valley and also sending Medals for 13 Sep 09

Dear Brig Rajender,

Cordial Regards.

I had met you in many occasions like during DESL silver Jubilee when honoured the gallantry awardees including Col Rawat (Father) by the Governor and recently I also handed over Telephone Directory 2009 for Defence Personnel to you in UESL/DESL office. Hope you will be to recollect now.

I am indeed proud of you for sending your contribution, donation & medals to IESM which we did long back but sad to say that our State Uttarakhand having full of Faujees with many high ranking officers hardly few have come forward for IESM. We had always full support of Admiral Arun Prakash, Lt Gen M S Gosain, Lt gen G S Negi,Maj Gen Sabharwal, Lt Gen K K Khanna, Maj Gen Chander Nandwani, Brig K G Behl, Col Ganga Singh ,Col T S Payal and many others when IESM displayed excellent dedicated activities against anomalies of 6 CPC in the country during last year hunger strike, subsequently during rally fast at Jantra Mantra also during this year due to which Govt was shaken up to issue so many amendmends on 6CPC letter of 11.11.08. Now also war of IESM is on for OROP or ranked based pension with many more other fruitful activities for welfare of veterans and their families.
Kindly help us in motivating other Uttarakhandees to come forward and volunteer for IESM as this is the only organisation today which is capable of fighting with concern authorities to achieve the desired Mission and to seek justice for the defence services including veterans. Due to exigencies of service I am here in Singapore, I extend my apologies sir.
Brij

A NEW THOUGHT AND LOGIC ON OROP

From: ramantn sarma colram40@yahoo.com

To: DELETED

Sent: Tuesday, 8 September, 2009 4:45:05 AM

A NEW THOUGHT AND LOGIC ON OROP -

Dear Veterans,

A new thought on OROP, projected by Maj Gen VK Singh is worthy of consideration, by the Armed Forces & the Govt, for the new crop of retirees, post 2006. Our Movement started with the sole aim of protecting the interest of more than 2.5 Million Veterans, who are pre 2006 retirees, who cannot be offered any lateral absorption or promised employment up to the age of 60 years. For them OROP is the best bet, since they have already retired. That also as per the existing definition of equal rank, equal length of service & equal pension.

Pre 1970 Military Personnel were pensioned off based on their Substantive Ranks. There was no worth while compensation for their truncated service. This meagre payment of gratuity was also based on the length of Service physically rendered by them without taking into account the truncated portion of their balance of service. Because the 60 years of age concept for retirement was not there. Further, their pension was rank based & not the length of service, which the author claims the real OROP.

The length of service clause was specifically introduced to ensure a degree of compensation to the loyal military personnel, by the third CPC.From 1970 onwards, the pension for the Armed Forces Personnel have been fixed based on the criteria of Rank cum Length of Service. Three generations have gone through this system & have benefited. To suggest that we should roll back to the 1970 era & discard the Length of Service criteria is like shooting at our own foot.

Notional fixation ordered by the Court in the case of Maj Gens, is a new concept. But no where, any Court has over ruled the concept of OROP. The Court pointed out of creating Class within Class of pensioners when for a group of retirees their pensions were fixed based on the average emoluments of ten months & for others it was worked out on the basis of 36 months. The court had also come down heavily on the petitioners, when they mis- interpreted the earlier ruling given to mean the grant of OROP.

The idea given by the author, as pointed out by me, in the beginning itself, may be explored for those who are in service today & likely to retire 10 years hence.

Veteran Raman

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OROP: Legal angle lightened up by Lt Col MG Kapoor

OROP: Legal angle lightened up

Date: Sunday, 6 September, 2009, 2:03 PM

My Dear VK,
I have gone through your write up on 'OROP'. It made an interesting reading. But permit me to say that your conclusions from the Apex Court judgments are not correct.

Firstly, the question before the Constitunal Bench of the Apex Court in Nakra's case was not that of 'OROP'.The question was whether it was proper to lay down a cut-off date and say that the liberalised pension formula for a retired Goverment employee would be applicable only to those who retired after the cut-off date and and not to those retired prior to the cut off date. The Apex Court replied in the negative. Earlier, the pension was worked out on the bases of the average pay drawn by a Govt empolyee in the last 36 months of service. The liberalised formula reduced the period from last 36 months to last 10 months of service but laid down that this would be applicable only to those retired after the cut-off date. The Apex Court directed the Govt to make it applicable to all Govt employees irrespective of their date of retirement. The famous quote from the said judgment was "Govt cannot pick up a date from the hat to say those retiring after the date would get the benefit and those retiring before it won't".

The last statement from the Apex Court judgment was misunderstood by many, including IESL (Indian Ex-Servicemen League) and they thought the judgement propagated 'OROP'. It did not. IESL on such misconception moved the Apex Court and instead of building up its case with regard to 'OROP' on its own merit, sought directions to the Government for 'OROP' on the basis of Nakra's judgment.

Another Constitutional Bench of five judges deciding IESL case (judgment by JS Verma CJI) then threadbare analysed Nakra's judgment and concluded that Nakra's judgment did not lay down such proposition and dismissed IESL writ petition.

In the latest case of Major Generals decided by two judges (Vains case) the question before the Apex Court was whether it was rational that pension of a Major General retiring before 1.1.1996 (i.e. even on 31.12.1995) is lower than that of a Brigadier retiring on or after 1.1.1996. Taking cue from and Nakra's judgment "Govt cannot pick up a date from the hat to say those retiring after the date would get the benefit and those retiring before it won't" and relyning upon the said judgment, the two-judges Bench decided it was not rational that the pension of a Major General retiring before 1.1.1996 (i.e. even on 31.12.1995) is lower than that of a Brigadier retiring on or after 1.1.1996. The Court (two judges) then directed the Govt to fix the pensions of all Major Generals who retired before 1.1.1996 at par with the pension of similar officers who retired on or after 1.1.1996.

This too does not lay down OROP proposition. In any case, IESL case decided by five-judges Constitutional Bench was not referred to the two-judges Bench in Vains case (Major General's case). Two-judges Bench naturally cannot decide against what a five-judges Constitutional Bench has held.

In this context your quoting a part only of the judgment and analysing the complete law on the subject is not correct. You thus have quoted the following out of context:

"This also contrary to the judgment of the Constitution Bench of the Supreme Court of 17 December 1982 that stated: “by introducing an arbitrary eligibility, being in service and retiring subsequent to the specified date, or being eligible for the regularised pension scheme and thereby dividing a homogeneous class, these classifications being not based on any discernible rational principle ... are unconstitutional and are struck down."

In my view the whole subject calls for a 'Review' by the Apex Court by a seven-judges Constitutional Bench.
With best wishes,
MG
(Lt Col MG Kapoor, Practising Law in Delhi High

National Commission for Ex Servicemen by Veteran Karan Kharb

From: Karan Kharb

To: DELETED

Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 6:06 AM

Subject: Re: National Commission for Ex Servicemen

The purpose and desirability of a National Ex-servicemen Commission is not to have an extended arm of the government to rehabilitate and placate some pleasing judges and pliable bureaucrats. The need is to serve the genuine interests of over two million veterans of the Armed Forces of the country.

Therefore there is no question of accepting in its composition anyone who has not served and experienced the unique conditions of service and hazards. We have precedence where Commissions are constituted wholly of the people of eminence from the very community or group they are supposed to serve.
Here are the live examples how other similar Commissions are composed:

1. National Consumer Disputes Redressal Commission:
It is headed by a sitting or retired Judge of the Supreme Court of India. National Commission is presently headed by Hon'ble Mr. Justice M.B. Shah, former Judge of the Supreme Court of India as President and having eight Members, viz. Mrs. Rajyalakshmi Rao, Mr. B.K. Taimni, Hon'ble Mr. Justice K. S. Gupta, Hon'ble Mr. Justice S.N. Kapoor, Dr. P. D. Shenoy, Mr. Anupam Dasgupta, Mr. S. K. Naik & Hon'ble Justice R.C. Jain.

2. National Commission for Scheduled Castes:
Chairman - Shri Buta Singh
Vice Chairman - Prof NM kamble
Members (4 - all from affected Castes/Class; no judge, no bureaucrat)
3. National Commission for Women:
Chairperson - Dr Girija Vyas
Members (3 - all women)
Member Secretary
(All Women; no judge, no bureaucrat.)
4. National Commission for Backward Castes:
Chairperson: Justice (Retd.) S. Ratnavel Pandian

Member-Secretary: Shri Lakshmi Chand

Member Dr. Subba Somu

Member Shri Ram Awadhesh Singh

Member Shri. Abdul Ali Azizi
(All from affected Castes; no judge, no bureaucrat.)

5. National Commission for Scheduled Tribes:
Chairperson: Smt. Urmila Singh
Vice Chairperson; Shri Maurice Kujur
Member; Shri Tsering Samphel
Member: Shri Oris Syiem Myriaw
Member (Vacant)
(All from affected tribes; no judge, no bureaucrat)

The following composition is but one suggestion that comes to mind after surveying other Commissions:-

(a) Chairman - One of the retired Chiefs of Staff (Army, Navy, or Air Force).
(b) President/Chairman of an ESM Organisation registered and representing the ESM community at National level, eg: IESL or any other Org with widest acceptance/representative nature.
(c) A highly decorated, war veteran Sub Maj from Infantry, Armd Corps, Arty or Engrs.
(d) A senior representative each from veterans of Navy and IAF.
(e) A war widow (preferably wife of the highest decorated martyr).
(f) AG or DGR (as Member Secretary).

Total: 7

Member Secretary's role can also be assigned to the serial (b) if AG/DGR not available/acceptable.

Arbitrary composition imposed by the Government not giving total representation to the ESM community must be rejected by one and all because such body will turn out to be yet another white elephant rehabilitating some babus and judges at the cost of ESM like the department of 'Welfare' that exists for itself and not for the soldiers/ESM.


Regards,

Karan
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